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Today I’m having a panel discussion with Organizational Psychologists on the topic of burnout.
My guests are: Dr. Paul Coppola, Organizational Leadership Psychologist and William James College Faculty.
Dr. Leanne, Industrial Organizational Psycholo...
Today I’m having a panel discussion with Organizational Psychologists on the topic of burnout.
My guests are: Dr. Paul Coppola, Organizational Leadership Psychologist and William James College Faculty.
Dr. Leanne, Industrial Organizational Psychologist and William James College Faculty
PsyD Candidate Leadership Psychology, Ryan McCreedy, Teaching Fellow at Harvard and Senior Principal in Organizational Effectiveness at Slalom
Topics that emerged from this rich discussion included:
Addressing the drivers of burnout; not the symptoms
The relational aspects of burnout
Psychological Safety correlation to burnout
Identity, the missing link, connecting Inclusion to burnout
Tips for you and your team to move away from burnout
Connect with Me : https://www.stretchintosuccess.com/ra...
Listen/Watch Rat Race Reboot: https://www.ratracereboot.com/
#copingwithburnout
#Burnout
#Lauranoel
#RatRaceReboot
#Mindset
#StretchIntoSuccess
#ParadigmShift
#Motivation
Well, first and foremost, I find this topic really interesting. Fascinating. There are so many people stuck in the rat race and in burnout mode. It's a topic that you're clearly passionate about because you've dedicated so much time, energy, and effort to researching the topic. So I'd love to hear from each one of you. What got you interested in the topic of burnout? And we can start with Paul?
Sure. Well, you know, it's interesting because when you look at society, we look at what's happening in the workplace, and we think about the individuals and how they're impacted. One thing that you start to notice is, especially when I've been working directly with individuals, a lot of times you hear me, you hear the term I'm so burnt out, and it, you know, you really start to wonder what does that even mean, and when we use it, we, you know, a lot of times it's that expression of emotional fatigue. And sometimes it's the maybe not even seeing the value in the work.
And so a lot of times, people will present one or two of the three components that really make up what burnout is. One of the things that I also noticed is that sometimes, people try to escape burnout. And you know, the research shows that it takes over two years to really recover from the impact of burnout. But what was really interesting to Laura and what piqued the kind of work that I was doing was that burnout didn't necessarily just happen in the workplace; life is happening all around us. It can happen for many reasons, both personally and professionally. It could be perhaps it is your ability to process and handle certain types of work.
But it also really started to appear that maybe how you identify in Kenya or true identity come through. Also what environmental factors are going on in your personal professional life? And so really trying to understand that deeper driver behind it and how can we measure that and understand that?
You know, I definitely want to dive into as we get deep into the conversation, there's three components of burnout. But I'm interested also, had you experienced burnout or had you seen it was it prevalent around you Around your colleagues and co workers?
You know, I definitely have seen it. You know, for myself, I probably experienced it at different points when you're We're all into something and you go through a lot of times emotional fatigue, candidly, is probably the one that I experienced the most of all, all the presenting symptoms. But yes, sometimes I've experienced situations where you maybe don't feel the value of your work, or you can't see that deeper purpose.
And then sometimes it's the question of why it matters. Right, and that may be the cynicism aspect. That's the least present. But I think, you know, it's very natural to experience. The difference, though, is how we process it. And I think for me, it's making sure that I also understood maybe what the deeper driver of it was so that we can continue to work, or do you need support to work through it? So that was really important from my perspective.
Okay, thanks for sharing that. And I think, as we talk through this, I mean, I think it's gonna be really important for listeners to walk away with some takeaways, you know, and maybe have a deeper understanding or a way that they can look into what are these drivers for them? What are the symptoms for them? And what are some of the ways that they can address those drivers and processes, you say, these feelings of burnout no matter what the aspect is, whether it's emotional or the different aspects of burnout? Thank you so much. And Leanne, I'd love to hear from you. What sparked your interest in the topic of burnout?
Yeah, there's so much of what you said, Paul, that I also resonate with, and I think we have a lot of overlap there. I've definitely been in those roles where I felt like I was burning out or definitely on the edge of burnout. And even at times today, I feel like that as well. And for me, what stands out is that burnout is really relational. It's not just us.
And as Paul said, it's not just the bubble of work, but it impacts who we are when we go home. And I'm also a work-family researcher. So what is really important to me is understanding how what happens in our work life also affects what's happening in our home life and our family life. But it is relational. And it's between you and your boss. It is between you and your coworkers. And maybe you're serving clients. And that is just so impactful. It's just so much a part of our day-to-day, and that has really driven me to want to understand burnout and really understand what kinds of support we need to prevent burnout.? Unfortunately, if it reaches that stage, how do we get out of burnout? But I think that the work you're doing on this podcast, Laura, is so important for people to just feel like, okay, I'm not alone.
Other people are experiencing it, and how can I learn from them in order to help myself? So yeah, thank you. I, you know, I love that you're keying in on the relational aspect of burnout because I know, I've experienced burnout. And quite honestly, that was at the pinnacle of my career. And there are still times when I experience it because, in one of the episodes, I talked about your passion and how that could feel burnout, you know, even when we're doing something that we love. And at the pinnacle of my career, a long time ago, I was experiencing tremendous levels of burnout.
And it was probably even though my footprint was everywhere, and I was a visible leader. It was probably the most lonely I've ever felt in my entire life. It was very isolating because it is relational. It impacts everything you touch and every relationship you're in. And even when that thing that causes if we want to, you know, point a finger toward the cause of our burnout, if even if we eliminate that, you know, perceived cause, it's still there. And so, what are some ways that we can mitigate that and get out of it? So that relationship, relational aspect of it, thank you for bringing that up. That's so important. And Ryan, I'd love to hear from you. What inspired you to study this?
Yeah, they are so similar to others. Obviously, Paul and Leanne have very similar motivations. I found myself as a manager; I led a large group of people for a while. And I think one of the times that it really blew my mind if you will, was when one of my employees came up to me and said, I quit. And I was very surprised because this is one of my most jovial employees. I was very excited for them; I would do anything to move mountains for them. And I said, Why, why? All of a sudden, there was no notice. You know, we talked about this. We had regular check-ins. And he said, you know, when I look at the past year of my life, I haven't really had a life, and he was like, I haven't been to the gym, and my relationships are falling. Like, I just don't really know who I am outside of what I do all the time. And that's work. And he was like the, he didn't say nice words, but he's like, the insidious thing is we did it with a smile. It felt good. But then I realized there was nothing else. And as soon as I realized that, I was like, I gotta stop this. And that was a big wake-up moment for me as a manager and as a leader to say, Wow, that is, I would never want to do that. Like, I feel like I did my pulled one over, like, this was not some evil tactic or anything.
Luckily, he ended up staying on with the company. We revised, you know, working schedules, etc. And I like to say that the four-day workweek before was cool, but Nicholas changed after I realized that my people got burnt out. And I was like, That's horrible. And I, myself, have also experienced, you know, burnout to various degrees and get close to a still today. And in the management consulting industry, it's an Industry known for burnout. I mean, to be frank, you know. And so that's one of the reasons why I came to Slalomm: work-life balance was a very large consideration of their branding. And I feel like they largely do well if it's still something that we're very focused on. And we'd actually do internal research on it, which I think is really cool. So, I am really spending time understanding what is driving wellness across our employees in this industry. So, your things?
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, you know. And that realization is really impactful. I have this work, and I have nothing else. And that's another aspect of burnout, even if we're neglecting a part of ourselves, and we're not the fullest expression of ourselves, or there's no space or room to do that to be that. But another thing you said that really caught my attention, and I almost hate to say a benefit, but because maybe we've all experienced burnout from time to time. I don't know about you, but I feel like when I'm heading in that direction toward it, I can feel it a lot sooner so I can take the course. Correct. Have you experienced that as well?
Personally 100%, I think now having a greater awareness around where those boundaries need to be, I guess you could say, think that's a large part of burnout is being able to hold boundaries. But if you have the warning signs, and you have greater awareness of when those are gonna happen, you can hold those boundaries sooner so that you don't end up in those episodic situations. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
It's almost like it can be a catalyst for change.
Now, I'm sure I'm curious about being an impulse thought. But I think the unfortunate reality is just like that vignette that I shared. For a lot of folks, it takes experiencing genuine deep burnout before they have that catalyst and awareness building. And it'd be very interesting to use evidence-based approaches in our organizational systems to help draw awareness proactively around those areas and those boundaries and those warning signs so that people don't have to go to the deep end and come back into the shore if you will.
Yeah, because once you're there, it's so hard to come back. I mean, once you're fully in burnout, if the recovery is, it's too difficult sometimes and, so I completely agree with you being able to recognize and understand where you're at, and course correct, like Laura said, at an individual level, but also for organizations to be able to understand where their staff are to is, is hugely important.
And I think the other piece of it, too, is that we all too often are addressing the symptom, and we're not addressing the deeper issue. And really understanding what the cause is, it may have nothing to do with the workplace at all, but we carry with us the burden that we bring in. And that burden is very personal; it could be related to the environment, something that's going on in our personal communities, or perhaps something that we've been dealing with or struggling with.
So, those triggers can be very deep. And if you can't understand where that might be coming from, we might try it. We may say we feel burnt out because of what's presented in front of us. And then it comes back again. And it could be six months. It could be two months, it could be a week. But really, how do you build that in the deeper part? It requires a lot of self-reflection to understand, and a lot of it is that these are learned experiences that we've had over our lifetime. And that's really where it becomes very important for us to look at things a little bit differently as we're working because organizations sometimes are trying to address burnout at the system level but do not understand that there may be other drivers that are coming.
All too often, you hear an organization say we're bringing well-being programs in, and our programs have a significant impact. But if you're trying to address the fact that I'm dealing with an emotional burden that someone may be bringing to me because of perhaps my race, because of something else I'm experiencing, a well-being program is not going to address that. And so we have to really look into your point, Ryan and Leanne. We were looking deeper, right? We understand where those drivers are in recognizing that we have to understand where people are to help with that process. And we can't just try to solve, sometimes, what seems like a very basic presenting symptom.
It's so funny that you say that, Paul because I used to work for a health system. They did something similar by rolling out these different well-being programs because we know that they're important, and we want to show that we're doing things to help our employees. And it's like, well, we had the yoga Monday at 11. You should have come, and it's like everyone who's experiencing burnout and is so overwhelmed and overworked can't go to the yoga at 11. And so it's really about being mindful of how we really help our people in ways that are effective and meaningful versus, let's just roll out this kind of one and done.
Unfortunately, sometimes that's the way it is just to say that we have an employee wellbeing program, check the box, it's well, well-intentioned. So, how do we begin to get to that? How do we really get at meaningful and helpful actually being helpful in those regards?
I think one thing for one; it's why, especially organizational psychologists, I think, have a great space to play in, in that we need to gray these barriers between, like you said, Paul, directly, right, like organizational system level implementation of the program, and helping the individuals have the awareness and the skills to manage on their own. And it's not an either, or it's a yes and right.
And I think a lot of it is how we can help individuals understand the tools, the tactics, the techniques so that they can navigate their personal and work environments and call that forward. And it's easier said than done because it's different for every individual is different for a lot of contexts, etc. But the beautiful thing is that there are a lot of tools and tactics for making boundaries. Also, having awareness around the signs of burnout is somewhat agnostic at times, right of context. And so if you give it to the individuals and you build up that toolbox, that repertoire enables them to actually change the system with them. And I think that's really important if you take it from an emergent approach rather than we're going to push it down a certain way.
That, I mean, is a no; that's the route. I mean, it's getting to the root cause of it in ways that are helpful for people while it's happening, equipping them with the tools, and then it kind of permeates through the organization. I would love to know, and I know all of our listeners would love to know, what some of the research that you're working on around the topic of burnout is. And I know you, Leanne, and Ryan are working together on some really interesting things. Paul, I would love to hear about your research as well. You know, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about what you've been working on? And you know, what have you really discovered in the midst of this research?
Sure. Well, one of the biggest pieces was to understand what was driving it. And so part of it is, and this was never intended to discredit any research that's been done on burnout, because burnout, we think about the work that was started with Freedom Burger back in the early 1970s, and has been just continued to be supported and mainstream to the work of Christina Maslach. And really, there were just so many founding discoveries; what it was really to complement that work. And so it actually worked on creating an instrument that actually measures and understands what is driving that burnout. It can look at other factors beyond the traditional things that you might experience in the workplace, and it starts to understand some of those deeper underlying factors of your identity and intersectionality.
So how do people feel that they have one identity that they bring into their personal environment, they have another identity that they have, perhaps bring into their professional environment, and where can they bring that forward? Where do they feel comfortable? Where do they have to hold back? Holding back is a burden that is placed upon the individual. It also looks at things like environmental factors that I mentioned a little bit earlier, and understanding what may be happening in those surrounding spaces, the types of relationships, and that it's, again, we talked about relational and how important that was, but what are their connections? Are there do p? Can people find their deeper purpose? And do they have that?
Are they able to share that? It also starts to look at what types of burden shifts might be occurring. And again, that could be related to identity, the roles, and authority that we each take up in the spaces that we are in. But the measurement was to really bring something forward that was reliable, and we were able to prove that out with the work. So it's really an instrument that we're hoping to be able to bring forward and share with other organizations that they could perhaps use and understand what those drivers might be, especially to make sure that we can identify the right solutions. And I said solutions because it may not be just one program. There may be a number of things that have to happen. That may be how we think about the organization as a whole. How do we support the individuals who are involved in that? And what other work can we do? So the instrument itself is really a way for us to understand that and hopefully simplify what's a very complex and very overwhelming problem for organizations and individuals, and really trying to make it feel more holistic in nature.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, you know, it's getting to the root cause, really, it's like you said earlier, it's not the symptoms that were that the bandaid that we're putting on, but it's really helping it sounds like potentially helping people to really reflect and develop a level of self awareness in terms of what are some of these underlying causes, so that we can work toward a solution?
Exactly. And it's kind of getting to that, that system of the five why, and we just keep going and really trying to uncover it and not just stopping at that surface. And that really became an important element of it. Is there more? And I think the simple answer is yes, there is. And it shows how complex we are as human beings. And we have to respect that. And we have to appreciate how we each show up in that space. Yeah, yeah.
That when do you expect some of this to launch and be ready for organizations? Because I can't wait for valuable?
I'd like to say soon we're working towards it. And hopefully, you know, in the coming in the next few months, it will definitely have something to share.
Okay. Oh, my gosh, I love this conversation now. Because again, you know, I, the yoga class that I'm too burned out to go to, you know, are the meditation, the mandatory meditation, and mandatory group meditation we rely on? You know, we throw around the word the word work-life balance all the time. Yeah. How personal that is. No one can tell us what work-life balance looks like except for ourselves. Right? And it is in that constantly. It's a very debatable topic right now for all of us.
And in workplaces. I don't have a work-life balance, and we're looking for someone to give it to us. And yet, that adds to what we sometimes feel like the whole element of resilience. And it's like, well, I don't get good work, work-life balance, and I'm going to leave because I'm gonna go find it somewhere else. But yet, you haven't figured out how to solve it personally. So we all own it. And it's fascinating to see that journey because, like I said, we talked about how we escape the problem. And sometimes we try to go somewhere else. And it does. It fixes it temporarily. But then we suddenly find ourselves in the same situation.
Yeah, I think it is a common question that I'll ask myself if I'm in the midst of stress, and I think it's pretty powerful. What am I feeling right now? Well, that's what I'm going to do: two questions and what do I need? What do I need? What do I need right now? What am I feeling? And what do I need? And having that awareness, I mean, that, that empowers us to be resilient.
And you made an important point, Laurie to adjust to honor, honor what you need. And that is so important to sorry, Leah, and I didn't mean to cut you off.
No, not at all. It's such a good point. And I was going to say that Laura can speak to this probably better than I can. But I love the question about how I am feeling. Because it really does, you know, becoming in tune and noticing, like taking the time to notice how am I feeling, you know, naming it really does make a switch in your brain. It can be so effective and just help to ground you, clear your mind, and help you just activate more of that rational part of your brain rather than that, you know, the flight part of it. And so I really love that question. It's such a good tip for when you're in those moments to just pause and either say in your head how you're feeling or write it down and actually name it, and you will see that physical change in your body.
Yeah, yeah. You know, in previous episodes, I was talking about whether I should quit my job. You know, because of that escape mechanism, right? We just want to leave. But if we can, we can pause it. And maybe that is the answer in certain scenarios. I'm not saying that it's not, but maybe it's not in some, and if we can pause and reflect and ask, What do I need? And then, well, then how can I? How can I create that? How can I ask for what I want? Is it possible? How can I engage in that dialogue and have those important conversations, you know, both up and down our leadership channels, and so important? Well, Leane and Ryan, I would love to hear what you're working on because I was really excited when you first presented this idea. And all three of you, I was thrilled to have you on the show. I'm so grateful that we're all here together so we can have this conversation. But I'd love to hear what you're working on.
Do you want to take the interview with me?
Go ahead. Yeah. All right.
So we are fortunate enough to gather a bunch of kinds of data, actually a test for student data for a few different validated survey assessments. And we found a unique anomaly. So psychological safety, Amy Edmondson sphere, this organization scan, has been used repeatedly and continuously refined. We found that that, and Paul referenced mass lack, we found that the reduction of burnout as measured by mass lakhs inventory was quite and fairly strongly related. We also saw that psychological safety was related to a sense of inclusion.
Almost the same correlation was interesting, like, okay, cool. What we then saw is the same exact dataset, sense of inclusion, and reduction of burnout were not well correlated. So it was very interesting. I was like, Okay, we're missing, we're missing a leg on the chair. And what is that leg?
Paul hinted at earlier, and that's very similar to Paul's work in that it might be identity. And a lot of the constructs that we have built around things like psychological safety, burnout, and to be frank, even inclusion have come from a lot of Western white, oftentimes, actually, in this field, female culture. And so we had very interesting conversations.
We decided to design our present research around those three things, but adding in the concept of stigma, consciousness, and so stigma consciousness. For those that aren't aware, it's kind of, as Paul was talking about, the awareness that your identity is showing up other than in a social system. And that additional capacity of you just thinking about you and how you're showing up. Because you have to put on a face, you have to mask. You have to code-switch all those things; that additional mental capacity that takes up might be related to the reduction of burnout in some people, even when there is what we call inclusion and psychological safety in the system. So that is one of the things that we're currently looking into. But we're also doing a qualitative approach to see what some of the emergent aspects are of how people qualify for how they're showing up and how psychological safety relates to their sense of burnout and their sense of inclusion. Another thing that we're doing is pretty darn cool. Leanne and I are very excited that in 2019, when Amy Edmondson wrote her book around psychological safety, she put in leadership behaviors that should create psychological safety in the environment. To our knowledge, that has never been empirically tested that model. So we've actually included that in here. Because rather than just subjective measures of experience, we want to see what some explicit, observable behaviors may relate to some of these experiences. What am I missing out?
That was perfect. That was perfect. And then I'll just add to that the hope from this, after our research, is, we find out, you know, what these important drivers are. How can we then train right now so that we know what leader behaviors are most important? How do we train right? How do we get this from the research kind of white coat area to the hands of actual leaders? How do we help them improve their psychological safety? We know that psychological safety is so critical, and, unfortunately, it is not something that is, you know, all too common in organizations. So I think the next step for us after our findings is really, okay, how do we move this to practice?
And I think one of the things that we were most shocked at was why this field is so fun to work in as we were like, oh, inclusion and burnout. I'm sure somebody's done the research on the gap between the two. There is very little research out there about relating those two to one another. Very little, I know Paul knows this very well, too. So we were kind of like, wow, like that's terribly upsetting, but also a wonderful opportunity for us to gain more insights, because there's something that is surprising, actually, that there really isn't anything or not a lot out there.
Well, just to kind of complement that too, when you start to look at the neuroscience behind it, and you start to see, you know, and when you as you look at how the brain processes, the being in and out-group, actually is a high trigger for her, you know, when we think about our amygdala is right, and that is that constant threat response. And that constant threat response can then lead to physical, emotional, and mental well-being.
And we know that it's critical as we think about the impacts on people's health, how critical it is that we can do more. And so I think all the work that everyone's been describing today is really about how we continue to ensure that people can have the quality of life in both their personal and professional lives that actually make a difference because it really does over the long term. They were on people. So earlier, Laura, when you describe the kind of those back and forth, imagine being in that constant state, and that's really what the difference with burnout is: that constant, repetitive state. And that's not it; it's not easy for people to go through, and it has a long-term effect on them. And so our, you know, all of our work, I think we can, and I'm speaking on behalf of this group, and everyone is more than capable of sharing to help improve the quality of life for individuals.
Yeah, and that long-term state, it's not just a short-term impact on the brain, this is like long-term impact on the brain, even though, even if it takes a couple of years to kind of get back to a state of feeling like we're in equilibrium, or we're not in burnout or independence, I was just gonna say to Paul's point around that, you know, they say, fire together, wire together, right. And so, oftentimes, in folks that are in those acute stress states that have that high level of arousal, them that, you know, amygdala activation, they'll do an appraisal of different events in their lives, and they might appraise those as negative, right, and then they that fires together. So then they're constantly perpetually triggered in many moments of their lives, now by this constant stressed-out state.
And so to the point, one of the reasons why it takes so long for this to come off is you have to rewire some of the things that you are experiencing that might not actually be contributing to burnout, but you are attributing it to it, because of your current state psychologically, and your heightened arousal autonomically. And so it's, it's very real and very serious. But there are a lot of exciting things out there in the world that give you very similar sensations. But if you're in a state of burnout, there's just going to be more stress, you know, so wait and see that it's like tape a people that get a really cool opportunity.
You may not be looking in the mirror, but you get this new thing. And it's like, Wow, congratulations, you got the promotion, you got this, you know, you. That's so cool. You got the opportunity to do this. And you instantly attribute that to, well, that's just more, you know, yeah. And you can't, really. You're never more anxious about it. Now you're like, great, here's another thing to add to the plate rather than, Wow, I'm excited for that opportunity. That was really cool. I deserve that, you know. So it takes time to unlearn and relearn and rewire all those things.
Yeah, that oh my gosh, that was my normal state of being, every accolade everything it was I was goal seeking organism and all of the good things, when something that would be fun, felt stressful. But for the longest time, I wasn't aware that I was in that state, because that was my normal. And I find that quite often in type A overachievers may not be looking in the mirror right now.
And I love that you're taking this, you know, to the point where we're looking to create actionable things for people to do to increase their quality of life. And it's not just at this high level, it's, you know, what are these drivers? How can we develop that awareness? What are some of the other things contributing to that burnout? What are the fun things that might be contributing to that burnout?
How can I unlearn some of these behaviors, and then what are those tangible things that we can actually do and model and share with other leaders? This has been such a great conversation. I know it's we're just touching the tip of the iceberg here with this conversation. It's so much deep. I'm looking forward to following you on your journeys with your research so that we can share this and get this out with more people. I think it's so important. Are there any last comments or any things that we didn't cover today that you'd like to leave our audience with?
I got a small one. But it's kind of interesting. We're doing some action research on these things with some of our own employees atSlalomm right now. One of the interesting findings, and Paul actually started us off there in terms of meaning, is that finding meaning in your work is a really cool, kind of interesting correlation. But it's about 12%, and feeling used up at the end of the day can be attributed to understanding the why at work. And so, it is something that I see with a lot of clients, and it sounds super business-snugly. But when you set OKRs and KPIs for your teams in your organization, are you talking about widgets? Or are you talking about the greater impact of the things that people are doing?
And we coached teams on that, and I get to do a lot of fun work in that space. But something like OKRs, helping the well being of employees is not something I'm hearing people talking about right now. And so I think there's a lot of structural operational, Business, School tactical things that we can reconsider and re approach and think differently about to help with meaningful outcomes for our employees and our systems.
I love that. What are we measuring? Just? Where are we focusing?
Thank you. The only thing I would add is that a lot of my research is actually in social support, specifically in coworker support. And so, the only thing that I would like listeners to think about is how much power we have to impact the lives of those around us. And even as co-workers, or colleagues, you know, taking the time to check in and ask how someone's doing right? Or send the text or say, Oh, how did that meeting go? I know you were stressed out about it. Even something like that that's small can make all the difference and impact, you know, stress and long-term burnout. And just knowing that you have social support, and that's something really interesting about the social support research, is that it's not even how often you've received help. It is about the perception that you would be able to receive help if you needed it. And so we are just we have so much power to impact the climate that we work in. By just doing little things like that, whether it's more instrumental support, like helping someone with an actual task, or that emotional support, and just being there and hearing someone, but you know, we have that power. And you know, something that sometimes we forget when we're also overwhelmed, but it is a good thing to just kind of check in and be mindful about, you know, each day.
Ah, thank you, that is gold, too.
And I just want to echo the points. And I would just say we, sometimes we forget, we're all humans. And we are so we're human supporting humans. And as we go through that process, sometimes we carry this sense of guilt. And we carry this sense of frustration with ourselves. And it's give ourselves a little grace. It's, it is, it is normal to go through these things.
And one thing is, and we talked a lot about journaling earlier, but thinking about your own trigger, you know, when do you notice it come up for you just sit with it a little bit, you know, in jot it down, think about when it, what it feels like and kind of explore it. One of the things you will learn a lot about yourself is that sometimes, what's happening for you is also your greatest superpower. And how you bring that forward to really drive success.
And I'm just gonna put I'm gonna, just a good book recommendation. I just read Tomorrow, mind, and it's a fairly new book out there. Absolutely worth some time. But it actually brings you kind of how you really drive and innovate. How do you bring creativity? How do you think about organizations, but how do you think about yourself in that mix? and one of the tips that comes out of it is to slow down. Just press that pause button in life, and we forget to do that. We are problem solvers, and we're wired to troubleshoot. But we forget to press the pause button. And sometimes, you know, as the adage goes, we spend $100 To solve a $10 problem because we we never stayed at the level of just exploring what's happening.
All such wonderful advice. I'm hearing the focus on what you're measuring and shifting that focus to people, recognizing the support and power that you have around you. And then, taking the pause to be a mindful journal, think about what some of your triggers are, those things that are driving you, and how they can be superpowers. All really wonderful advice, very tangible things that people can take with them and implement today. I want to thank you all for being on the show today and sharing your research with our listeners. I'm so grateful, and thank you so much for having us, Laura. Thanks, Laura.
You are welcome. And for those of you listening, we're going to continue our series on the topic of burnout. But I'm going to leave you the way we always leave our episodes. Just remember, everything is created twice. First in your mind and then in physical form. Have a great rest of your week
